Oceans Apart. It's such a resonant title - especially evocative for a band like the Go-Betweens. It was during a short break from the recording studio that long time songwriting partners Grant McLennan and Robert Forster happened upon the bar that would provide the name for the new Go-betweens record. According to McLennan, the Oceans Apart establishment was like a 'garish oasis' in the middle of bunch of London sports bars. Of course, it's not the only reason why it's such a rich title for the band. It could also apply to the idea of the distance between Australia and Europe, the gulf between critical acclaim and sales and the personalities and approaches to songwriting of both McLennan and Forster.

You've been with Robert a long time now - do you need each other?
I don't think we need each other outside of the group. It's not like we're co-joined twins or anything. But I think when we're doing the Go-betweens something mysterious and special comes and we seem to bring it out of each other. The fact that we do have a friendship means that it's always pretty good in the Go-betweens house.

When did you realise that he was going to be your life partner?
Well he's not my life partner. I guess when we first met. Before he even suggested that I learn bass and start a band with him we were friends and talking about books and music and films and stuff like that. In the 90s when we were working outside the group the friendship remained in tact and we kept in contact and we did do some work together but it wasn't musical. I just think we work well together and we've got great ambitions for the group.

Robert has said in the past that he steers and guides rather than argues with you - do you feel that to be true?
It is true - we've never argued. I guess if that suits his Thurston Howell fantasy he can do that. I guess in someway he does. After all Robert did ask me to start a band with him so he had the idea first.

What were you thinking of doing before Robert asked you to be in a band?
I wanted to be Australia's most interesting film maker. Or I wanted to go to Paris and be a poet. I wanted to be a choreographer for the Royal Ballet. All sorts of things. Certainly I never thought once about being a rock n' roll star or anything, not at all.

Have you ever thought about going back to those dreams? I know you wrote a screenplay during the 90s.
I'd like to think in the years ahead that interesting diversions could happen. I retain an interest in all those things. Who knows? I'm certainly not negating the idea.

If you were to direct a ballet what would it be?
Oh God. I always thought Macbeth would make a good ballet. Apart from the fact it's one of Shakespeare's shortest plays, it's a very easily digested story. It's got all sorts of scope for weird choreography from the witches' point of view to the more classical ballet and areas for a bit of free form and stuff.

The 'out out damned spot' free form sequence.
Yeah, it could be quite good.

You've mentioned that Oceans Apart is a cross between the Pet Shop Boys and Bob Dylan.
I didn't say that. Someone who heard a song called 'The Statue' said that and they passed that onto me and I thought it was rather delicious. It's not a bad ball park analogy. I could come up with another one but Pet Shop Boys and Bob Dylan that's not a bad marriage; that's an interesting marriage.

Give us your best analogy.
I would've thought Serge Gainsbourg meets Lady Tron. That song that we're talking about Robert and I had in mind a very louche, French electro-pop number.

Have you ever done a song in French?
I have at home but, funny you should mention that, it is a big desire of mine and I think before I stop recording I will get the guts to sing a song in French.

When are you planning on stopping recording?
A couple of days, perhaps, before I have to shuffle off this mortal coil. And I don't know when that is yet, Chris, so I can't give you a scoop there.

Oceans Apart is a great name - taken from a bar, right?
It's funny there was this very weird bar not far from the studio in South London where we were recording. Most of the bars around that area were called the Duke of Clarence or the Earl of Sussex or something and they were very dodgy English pubs with big football screens and a lot of skin heads whereas this bar was like it was beamed in from Miami, Florida. It was winter aswell and it was this very weird, garish oasis and it was called Ocean's Apart. Robert just chose the phrase and he thought it was really good. And I like the fact that some bands name albums after bars or clubs.

What other meaning has it come to have for you?
A few questions about it have mentioned the distance between Australia and Europe and we've spent a lot of time traveling between those places. Also the way Robert and I approach things, some people see that could be ocean's apart. In some ways Ocean's Apart has a more southern hemisphere, Pacific vibe as opposed to the older European, Northern Hemisphere kind of thing. It's a resonant title and I still like the fact that it's named after a bar.

What's your favourite song off the record?
Well, this is the first record that I've made where I think that every song is just as good as it could possibly be. I think just for impact the first song 'Here Comes a City' says it all really. There's something vital and revolutionary about that song. It's a real breakthrough and we're just really happy with it so, maybe, that one.

What do you think is revolutionary about 'Here Comes a City'?
Within the group there's a new attack plan. I think the band is getting a really good groove going. Also I think lyrically Bobby's on top form in that one. Also the band is making a racket and shaking things up. Showing people how to do things. I like that. There's an arrogance and a swagger to it.

You say you like bands with arrogance and swagger … who in particular?
Good question. Kings of Leon - I think there's something about them. They've got their own language almost and I think they're really good. A band like Belle and Sebastian - I think there's big self belief in that group. Something that's a bit older - Station to Station by David Bowie. There's someone who's shaken things up. The Earlies album that's very much a unique thing and they're taking risks there and I like that. I like bands having their own language, I like bands that are mavericks, I like bands that take risks. I like bands that are willing to fall on their face. I don't like bands who just want to be like someone else and it just dilutes it and it doesn't matter how good you do it it's just a dilution. I like my medicine strong.

You obviously relate to that cockiness - have you ever had any self doubt?
Yeah, sure. But I think it's good to have that because it means you're still asking questions. You're still testing yourself.

What was the last big question that you asked of yourself?
Whether I should pick up this phone. Whether to have half dozen oysters natural or a dozen.

They're not necessarily the big questions are they?
I leave the big questions to the people who have the big answers. No hard questions - I mean, God, I'm an Aquarian - what do I know?

Have bridges been built with Lindy Morrison?
In my opinion there wasn't any broken bridge. We might've been having some trouble negotiating our way across the bridge but I didn't think there was any broken bridge. In fact the last time I saw Lindy - it sounds like a movie doesn't it? - was at the ARIA awards in 2003 and we had a good time together.

How much say do the other members Glenn (Thompson, drummer) and Adele (Pickvance, bassist) get in the big decisions?
Well the big decisions, I think, are playing the songs so they get to make big decisions. I mean Robert and I work on the songs together and jam them around for a while and then we go into the practice room with Glenn and Adele and everyone reacts to the piece of music. It's not like we notate a bass line or say to Glenn that he's got to do a 16th high hat part. Sometimes you know what a drum beat has to be and what works and doesn't work. So those decisions are all between four people.

When was the last time you found yourself doing air guitar at home by yourself?
(Laughing) Yesterday. I was soloing wildly to a Yo La Tengo track. It's off the rarities thing that has just come out (Prisoners of Love: A Smattering of Scintillating Senescent Songs: 1985-2003). They've recently released a compilation album and if you get the special edition you also get an extra cd (A Smattering of Outtakes and Rarities) and Ira was really firing off some extraordinary Hendrixesque distortion and for a minute I thought I was there.

When you play air guitar do you ever air press the effect pedals?
No, the Go-betweens aren't a pedal band. We're a band, like Chuck Berry, you get it from the guitar and the amp and lots of attitude.

In praising Oceans Apart there's been some back handed compliments from critics about the worth of The Friends of Rachel Worth and Bright Yellow, Bright Orange lps. How do those stand up for you?
Rachel Worth continues to haunt me in some way. I find it very lost; innocent but, at the same time, there's a threat of darkness. Like a fairy tale forest. It's a very enchanting record, quite a mysterious record and I've grown to really push it up there now. Bright Yellow, Bright Orange - I don't think it was quite the record I wanted it to be. Some things got left off it. I think it's a bit like Tallulah it's a bit inconsistent. The high points are really great but, yeah, I still love it but it could've been better. If that's not too harsh.

Do you blame yourself for that?
Ah, I guess in some ways but I can't say it's on a sixty second bar of that song that I didn't play the right sort of note or something. It's not like that. I just think perhaps the head space I'm in now is more going for Rachel Worth. But I still think they're both fantastic records, Jesus, yeah I do.

'Boundary Rider' has been likened to 'Cattle & Cane'. How do you feel about those comparisons?
I think 'Cattle and Cane' is one of my best songs and a lot other people have tended to agree with that over the years so if 'Boundary Rider' mentioned in the same category I think that's great. Certainly I can see it fitting in, yeah.

Your songwriting style is always describes as wistful and romantic - is that how you see your songs?
Sometimes, sometimes. No. I mean sometimes. But before you jump in and say, 'well, what do you see them as?' To me I'm, in some way, trying to capture an emotion or a feeling - not necessarily just tell a story but to actually get down in words and music the fizz of the feeling of having an argument, or longing for someone or being physically exhausted from someone. Just to get that intensity I hope.

What is your strongest emotion?
I can't answer that. I'm not in analysis.

Are you sentimental?
Occasionally when a puppy dog looks at me it will melt my heart.

Do you ever get accused of taking yourself too seriously?
Often.

Or not seriously enough?
Never.

Always too seriously. When was the last time that someone said that to you?
(Laughing) A couple of days ago.

In what context?
'Lighten up' I think is the phrase. It wasn't in a musical context. I think I was being quite critical of some Australian performers on one of those TV shows (X-Factor).

What do you feel about those type of talent quests?
Rubbish. And also a betrayal of every artistic desire.

Your songs often relate to a place where you're comfortable - when do you feel out of place?
(Laughing) When the drugs wear off. When I'm not on stage, man. Um, God, I mean these questions. I guess like anyone else - when you go to a party and you don't know anyone. One can make that a metaphor if you want. Being in front of a still camera always makes me uncomfortable but a moving camera I don't mind at all. Being lost in a town where you don't speak the language and you don't have a map and can't remember the name of the hotel. There's another one.

Do you prefer living in Australia or overseas?
I like winter in Australia. I think summer in most places is just too hot. I've been mentioning to Bobby that it would be good to maybe spend a bit more time in Europe. I'm beginning to feel more European in the last year or so. Doing that European thing for a while.

Whereabouts?
I was thinking the Mediterranean. Initially I was going to go Italy. But I love Portugal.

Isn't Europe a state of mind?
Yes.

©2005 Christopher Hollow

Queenslanders Robert Forster and song writing partner Grant McLennan are treasured by candle light sages worldwide as leading one of the quintessential 80s cult bands – the Go-Betweens. After a lay off spanning most of the 90s the band is back – the latest record Bright Yellow, Bright Orange is the second of the ‘re-union’ albums following 2000’s The Friends of Rachel Worth. This interview got off to an interesting start as the woman organising the conference call kept referring to him as ‘Robert Foster’.

Has anyone ever commented on the striking resemblance between you and Australian writer Gerald Murnane?
No. Who's Gerald Murnane?

Murnane...Forster

He's written a few books - one was called 'Landscape with Landscape' that came out back in the 80s.
Is it an art book?

No, he's a fiction writer. Is there anyone else in the world that people think you look like?
I don't think so. Gerald Murnane. You've got me intrigued with that but generally no.

Are you a passionate Queenslander?
Ah, no.

Is there ever a time where you get defensive about Brisbane?
I used to back when the world was more separated. Back in the late 70s/early 80s people had a view of Brisbane and Queensland in general that we were hillbillies. But we were stupid enough to put up with the Bjelke-Petersen government and that meant we were stupid enough to put with anything. Once that changed in the late 80s I think the perception slowly changed and Brisbane changed as well and Queensland in general joined the rest of Australia. It’s a lot more united now. But in the late 70s/early 80s the whole band had to defend itself about coming from Brisbane and I think then we were a little more aggressive. ‘It’s not as bad as you think, people are not as stupid as you think, there is something going on there.’ Maybe the fact the Go-Betweens came from Brisbane helped change the tide. Maybe that was the deciding factor.

Tell us about the lead single off the Bright Yellow, Bright Orange LP - ‘Caroline & I’. I hear it’s about Princess Caroline of Monaco.
It’s what I would call a ‘friendship’ song. I wrote this melody that was very poppy and very melodic and you can’t write a long, dark depressing lyric on top of that. You’ve got to go for something lighter. It was Caroline’s birthday around the time I was writing the melody back in 1997. The two events interlocked. It got me thinking about being born in the same year, 1957 and what that means to me. It’s always sort of clicked. As a teenager she was someone that I noticed from afar.

What about Princess Stephanie? Did her foxiness not interest you?
Stephanie would probably interest other people born in her year. What is she four years younger? She’s definitely led a different life. But there would definitely be other people who would feel a connection with Stephanie.

You mentioned it was written in ’97 and was a very immediate song. How come it wasn’t on The Friends of Rachel Worth album?
What happened with that was Grant and I always have the same amount of songs on an album and for Rachel Worth it was either that or ‘Surfin’ Magazines’. I was going for ‘Caroline & I’ and other people, friends were going for ‘Surfin’ Magazines’. It was a competition for the poppy spot on the album and I went with ‘Surfin’ Magazines’ but always knowing ‘Caroline & I’ was almost the first song for the next album.

It’s interesting that it was rejected for the last record but is the lead single for this one.
I know but it can happen like that. I actually thought just before we made the Bright Yellow, Bright Orange album that we’d lost it. We were in the practice room and we made a demo and it was the worst sounding song on the demo. I went back to a recording that I’d made with my wife on violin back in 1997 and I could see over time how it had sped up. Once we slowed it down immediately the whole thing changed and we had the song again.

In David Nichols’ Go-Betweens book there seems to be a bit of time spent on your sex life.
Oh, God. I don’t know what to say about this. It doesn’t interest me (laughs) and I honestly can’t see how it would interest anyone else. It’s burnt me on books I must admit. I think it’s too much information. I pity the reader that has to wade through it all.

Does it mean now that your sex life has a life of its own?
Unfortunately it seems to. But there’s not much to tell and it saddens me. It honestly does but there’s nothing I can do. All I can do is keep writing songs and just to avoid people that want to go into this detail.

Was Grant annoyed that there was so little on his sex life? The rumour is, and for all I know he might be spreading it, is that his is a bit more vivid.
I think Grant is very happy that he got off so lightly. That he didn’t get put through this horrible process and it is an embarrassing, horrible process that I got put through with that book. I spoke with the author and his defence is ‘well, it incriminates the person who’s saying it all’ but my thing is ‘fine, that’s great but at the same time it’s still out there’. My family has to read it; my children have to read it. Sure it incriminates the person that blabs it all but it’s my family who has to read it. Also it’s the general public that has to read all this who probably saying ‘weren’t the Go-Betweens about music?’ That thought might cross some people’s minds. Weren’t songs involved? But there’s nothing I can do now.

Is this part of your continued parallel life with Princess Caroline with all her tawdry affairs being well documented by the press?
It probably is. It probably befells all people born in 1957.

You’ve maintained a long friendship with Grant. Is it a brother type relationship in that you can criticise him but no-one else can?
I can. But I don’t criticise, I steer and I think that’s the key with Grant. We’re not believers in tearing strips off each other and that makes everyone feel better. You know like huge screaming sessions and you come out with some kind of therapy and feeling better. It’s a very normal friendship – it’s like two guys working in a paint shop. Like two guys working in a bakery. Two guys who are on a boat and have got a fishing business. It’s the same sort of friendship.

There’s a theory proffered by you guys that the even numbered albums are poppier and the odd numbered albums are more experimental. Are you the only band in the world who would ever think like that?
Probably and I can feel us going off on an experimental tangent already. It seems to have fallen that way. I think the Go-Betweens course is a zig-zagging thing almost like a boat. It’s tacking. We go to one point and then we say ‘oh we’ve got to get all the way over there’. Then we turn a corner and say ‘we’ve got to go almost back to where we were’. We’re going forward but we’re tacking from side to side.

What about the ‘double L’ album title thing (Bright Yellow, Tallulah, Liberty Belle, Hollywood etc.) – it’s a very quaint tradition – does it mean you have a list of potential album titles with double L’s?
It’s purely coincidence. The album titles that we seem to like seem to have that. Rachel Worth didn’t have it. Its not some golden creed that Grant and I hold onto and think we’ve got to do every time. If we came up with an album title we liked that didn’t have it we’d go for it.

I’m very interested to know how you feel about the word ‘wistful’ – it seems to appear in every review ever done on the Go-Betweens.
We’re not wistful. That would occasionally come in but it wouldn’t be a word I’d put in every review.

©2003 Christopher Hollow

On the rumour that the upcoming Go-Betweens shows is McLennan and Robert Forster performing as a duo…
It’s true. Robert’s moved on to keyboards so we’re a little bit like the Pet Shop Boys now. Which is probably not as weird as it sounds. The earliest song we’re doing is from 1979 and the latest song in 2002 and there’s a lot of stops in between.

On being described as the quintessential 80s cult band…
Sometimes it might be delusional but it certainly makes me feel happy. The fact that we’ve been able to play in lots of countries over the years means that people have some feelings for what we do. I just hope it doesn’t mean that we’re like this weird, hillybilly fringe band that comes down out of the mountains every so often.

On those wanting Forster and McLennan to not disturb the Go-Betweens legacy…
There are some people who wanted Picasso to stay in the blue period too. I can understand that some people are passionate and care about the band but I kind of ask them – what band are they talking about? Are they talking about the two piece Go-Betweens that made the first three singles? Are they talking about the Go-Betweens when we were a three piece? Or the Go-Betweens when Robert Vickers joined the band or Amanda Brown joined the band? If I thought that Robert and I were going to fuck it up I’d be out of the door straight away because I’m a big fan of the band too.

On the sense of melodrama that ex-member Lindy Morrison’s tears lent to the Long Way to the Top Australian rock series…
I think everyone in the band has their certain view of events but it certainly did add a bit of soap opera to proceedings. I love it. Lindy was quite emotional but I think she was looking back at a time when it was a big struggle. People don’t realise that going to London in the early 80s just how little respect Australian music had there in the bloody home of Empire. I thought the ABC did a pretty good job. I also loved the joke of the commentators saying ‘with the rise of punk and new wave it meant that musicianship wasn’t so important’ and they cut straight to us. I thought that was a cheeky, cheeky joke.

On the campaign Lindy Morrison and Amanda Brown have waged for more recognition…
I always thought whoever was in the band at the time was in the band because they wanted to be there and we wanted them to be there. I think what Amanda did on the two albums was great and three albums that Robert Vickers played on was great and he had the clothes. And Lindy was the drummer we had to have. In general Robert and I have never been anything but complementary and appreciative of whoever’s played in the band.

On why they weren’t asked to re-join the band…
I haven’t really been in contact with Lindy or Amanda since 16 Lovers Lane and the band broke up in 1990. When it came down to playing together again the most important thing was Robert and I getting into a room together and finding a sense of community with him. The question of who was going to play what came up and when we thinking of bass both Robert and I suggested Adele Pickvance. We knew straight away that this was going to be yet another twist and turn to the story.

On ‘Cattle and Cane’ being voted No. 3 in the Rhythms Top 100 Australian Songs of All Time …
I’m constantly amazed and at the same time humbled that something that I wrote in someone’s else’s bedroom on someone else’s guitar in early ’82 means so much to so many different people. Not only Australians either. I still love the rhythm of it and getting back to Lindy I think her drumming on it is amazing. I’m really pleased because it’s a song that is unbelievably personal at the same time as being confessional.

On why not many artists have covered Go-Betweens songs…
The lyrics we write can be a bit confronting for other people to sing. I am surprised that more people haven’t covered our songs. But maybe it’s a rich mine that in the next few years people might discover. I’m still waiting for Madonna and maybe Destiny’s Child to take a stab at something off Tallulah.

On the overt 80s production values that mar some of the Go-Betweens best tracks…
It was hard having to live and record through that horrible, horrible period. Computers were coming in and drum machines and all sorts of click tracks and gated drums. That was very 80s. On some things we made some ill-judged decisions. But in general I think our music still sounds pretty organic and is mercifully free of a lot of that bullshit.

On having a surname that’s a hybrid of Lennon and McCartney…
It’s something that I occasionally say to Robert and he just rolls his eyes.

On the recording of their last album 2000’s The Friends of Rachel Worth…
We knew we didn’t want to go back into a big studio because the last time we did a record was 16 Lovers Lane at EMI in Sydney with a producer and budget. We didn’t want to put that pressure on ourselves. We wanted it to be simple. Just go into a studio and record live which we did. Before Hollywood was recorded like that too.

On whether there’s a follow-up being recorded…
I didn’t want to get all worked up and be driven by the dynamic of working with Robert again to just make one record and go away. In August we’ll hopefully be rehearsed and be able to start recording a new album in Melbourne.

On the difference between the songwriting styles of McLennan and Forster…
We’re both very different lyricists. Robert is much more observational and anecdotal. He puts himself pretty much in the first person. I’m more interested in writing lyrics that are not from a particular time. I realise when you hear The Friends of Rachel Worth there are two different viewpoints at work there. I think that’s what gives the band its power.