The pairing of Kim Salmon and Ron Peno is a rich idea. Both made their reputations as focal points for two of Australia's most innovative bands - Peno as front man with Died Pretty and Salmon as chief architect of the Scientists. But despite being contemporaries, emerging from similar scenes, attracting similar fans, as people they couldn't be more different. Both are guarded but Ron, all wine and roses, exudes a far more laissez faire attitude compared to Kim's taciturn nature. Indeed, Peno delighted in taking us to the Prahran Tabaret, all flashing lights and gaudy furnishings, where he was very comfortable with the bright ring of the Pokies and cries of delight coming from the machines and the nearby pool table. Salmon, it appeared, would happily never set front in the place again.

When the two start talking there are hints of friction. Both take friendly cracks at each other. The new friendship is fascinating to watch. And whilst Ron has always collaborated, Kim has done so rarely. During the conversation it becomes obvious Ron would've been happier with a more countrypolitan sound but Kim was adamant their debut record should be a sparse affair. But just when it seems Kim's vision is the dominant one, a story is told how Kim brought in lyrics and Ron refused to sing them.

Pitched as country and stripped back to just guitar and voice, How Can I Forget this Heart of Mine could be misconstrued as a dour outing. But Salmon's arrangements and Peno's yearning, elastic voice succeed in taking it someplace else. This is country like Skip Spence discovered on Oar.

Kim, you got car jacked a few weeks ago after a Darling Downs show. You got roughed up a bit, a black eye and had your car stolen.
Kim: "It was pretty appalling and I had a rough week there. I got the car back but I didn't get the guitar back which is a shame especially since it sounds so beautiful on this record. I got beaten up around the head, got a black eye. But it was more that I was in shock that such a thing could happen, a real violation. I felt a disregard for my family because they're the ones who suffered because although we've got a fairly decent car, we're renters and we don't have much else. But Ron was the first one to call me in the morning."
Ron: "I was oblivious to the whole thing. Waved goodbye to him at the door at the Empress and went back inside and was busy socialising. The next morning I was in the shower listening to RRR and heard he'd been beaten up. I was, like, 'what? We played last night, how could he be beaten up?' Fortunately it was only a smack in the head."
Kim: "No worse than I get from you everyday."
Ron: "Can I see you in the bathroom please."

Were you both friends before this collaboration?
Kim: "Of course. That's why we're doing it."

Will you be friends afterwards?
Kim: "Yeah."
Ron: "Depends on how much it sells."

When did you first meet?
Kim: "It was the Vulcan Hotel in 1982 at a Scientists gig. Ron was chatting with me after the show. He knew a lot of words to 'Swampland' so my first impression was I thought he must have been a rock fan.
Ron: "I came across this wonderful band called the Scientists. Turned out to be a bloody teased haired, bloody grunge band. I saw them as this great, Flamin' Groovies pop band. I just thought what a brilliant band, I want to join them. One stage I tried to join the Scientists.
Kim: "I don't remember that."
Ron: "Oh, I do. I got a phone call from somebody going, 'you want to come to a rehearsal."
Kim: "They didn't tell me."

Was there ever competition between the Scientists and Died Pretty?
Kim: "There was no competition. The Scientists were so far ahead of everybody how could possibly compete…"
Ron: "Only they realised it though, nobody else would. Did you like Died Pretty as much as I liked the Scientists?"
Kim: "I will say this, the first time I saw them I thought 'this is a band I could like - it's the sort of thing I go for' and the next time I saw I thought they were awesome, they're staggering, genius. Mind you I had had a lot of drugs that night."

After 20 years what was the impetus for getting together as the Darling Downs?
Ron: "Me moving to Melbourne and meeting up with Kim at a Moodists show. Kim mentioned he wanted to do a country thing and I said I would come over. It may not have worked but fortunately it did."

When did you realise that it would?
Ron: "Third song, second song actually. After the first song probably which was 'I'll Be Always There'."
Kim: 'That's why I wanted it to be the first track because it was the very first thing that we did. Also we got it in one take, both of us. It's a very immediate track. Whether or not it's the most immediate on the album I don't know.

I think it's the most immediate. It's a song that could be on a Wes Anderson picture like Royal Tennebaums or Rushmore.
Kim: Well, you're wrong. It's the second track 'In That Jar' that is the most immediate (laughing).

I was surprised there wasn't more harmony singing - since you're both singers.
Ron: "We don't harmonise. We're no Simon & Garfunkel."
Kim: "It's true though. Lead singers are often lead singers by default. To sing back up is really hard - you've really got to be able to pitch your voice perfectly. Whereas lead singing is about identity and delivery and a whole other thing."

Ron, you've always revelled in collaboration, what makes for a good partnership?
Ron: "I've just come out of a partnership of twenty years with Brett (Myers, from Died Pretty). It was a lovely marriage but we had to divorce. We're estranged now but we're still writing together. And that will be an ongoing partnership forever. Kim and I have known each other for years but we only formed a friendship in the last year with the Darling Downs. Like a hang out type friendship where we phone each other and get to know each other and we're still doing that now. It's only very early days. Our friendship is still developing along with the creative side of it.

How's working with Kim different to working with Brett?
Ron: They're not that different at all - both lovely guys, pretty easy to work with. Kim has a harsher way of playing acoustic guitar than Brett - if that's the right way of putting it. It's a different way of writing with Kim these days too. I'm much more into working with melodies as opposed to being a lyricist. I don't like writing lyrics much. Not very good at it at all and don't enjoy it. I usually just jam out the lyrics. Some things change every time we do it. The dynamic we have is that I create, he directs. He creates too, of course. But we have our different roles. He's the director. I'm the foot stamper. The sulk.

Why do you prefer to not write lyrics down? Obviously you trust your subconscious.
Ron: Obviously. I don't know - maybe it's because I'm lazy as a songwriter. I hate writing lyrics, I'm not a lyricist, I'm a melodist.
Kim: I think he's being sarcastic there. He probably thinks of it like a conversation - it's easier to make up your conversation on the spot than to have notes.
Ron: Not at all.
Kim: You think I'm talking rubbish do you?
Ron: I can, so I do it. Nobody questions me and nobody says 'this won't be recorded unless it has lyrics'.
Kim: I find myself asking about lines all the time. Like, 'did you just sing 'I'm a naked old man'?
Ron: Or whatever.

Kim, it's been a long time since you've done a collaboration.
Ron: "Here's been a bit of a loner hasn't he?"
Kim: "I guess I just must be hard to work with."

You do have that reputation. At one time Dave Faulkner (Hoodoo Gurus) was mooted for this project - but you weren't keen for that?
Kim: "The thing with Dave is, even though the Hoodoo Gurus are vastly different to what I've done, what he actually does as a musician is not a million miles away from what I do. He plays guitar and constructs songs in a similar fashion despite the fact they're completely different to mine whereas Ron, I can safely say, works in a completely different way to me. It's a different thing entirely and there's no clash. When he does his thing I don't have to think, 'oh, gee, you're doing it the wrong way. Perhaps we should change that'. I mean we do have a lot to say in what each other is doing but the two things are different enough to feel like we've got our own space. We're both allowed full creativity without impinging on each other's freedoms.

But there are obviously strict guidelines on this record. There's very minimal instrumentation.
Ron: "That's where I disagreed with Kim. I wanted more embellishments on the album. Strings, fiddle, pedal steel and mandolin and Kim didn't.

So, Kim you were keen to keep it sparse.
Kim: "Because I think when people see us live what they're responding to is what they're witnessing then and there. They're not responding to something that could be. I think for us to make our debut in this world and to define ourselves it's more appropriate for this first record to keep it sparse. Later down the track we can get Phil Spector in if he's out of jail or wherever he is and have more embellishments.
Ron: "See, I like Burt Bacharach and those Jimmy Webb type things. I adore those arrangements and singing and that's what I find in the Darling Downs songs albeit stripped back. If I had my way 'Loverslain', for instance, would be a Righteous Brothers type song. Timpani's and soaring strings in the chorus.

I heard a good quote from the Darling Downs sessions where you said something like 'I can hear strings on this track' and Kim's retort was 'If you can hear them then there's no need to put them on'.
Ron: Which, of course, is complete rubbish. It would've sounded completely gorgeous with strings on there. But he was right though. The record sounds spectacular. But maybe I'll do a remix.

Are you saying you haven't got your own way?
Ron: For the time being no. But the next record I will.
Kim: The next record will be called Ronnie's Revenge.

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©2005 Christopher Hollow